This week, I’m talking with director Ivy Jelisavac about intrinsic motivation, creating structure to get things done, and building community online.
Guest: Ivy Jelisavac
Ivy Jelisavac is a director working across Europe. Her work explores the human condition, personal connection, and resilience of spirit.When not on set, she’s usually outside with her dog Eli – ideally in, on, or near bodies of water.
Here’s what we discussed on this episode:
- Ivy’s website
- Ivy’s on social media: Twitter | Instagram
- Relationshit on Amazon Prime: US | UK
- Digital Minimalism
- Get Bullish
- One Month
- Kat’s social presence: Instagram | Twitter
- HTBC Instagram
You’re listening to How to Be Creative, a podcast about what it means to be creative across different disciplines, industries, life circumstances, and career structures. You’ll learn tips for fitting creativity into your daily life and hear from a bunch of different people about how being creative has helped them reach goals, open doors, and live a more rewarding–or at least more interesting–life. I’m your host, Kat O’Leary, and I’m excited to introduce you to some of my favorite creatives, as well as to the tools that help me get my most crucial work done.
Kat: My guest today is Ivy Jelisavac. Ivy is a director working across Europe. Her work explores the human condition, personal connection and resilience of spirit when not on set. She’s usually outside with her dog, Eli, ideally in on or near bodies of water.
Kat: Thanks so much for joining me, Ivy. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited about this. Um, so just a little bit of background, um, for my audience. Um, Ivy and I have been accountability partners, creative accountability partners for I think coming like around two years now, right? Yeah. Which is amazing. So, um, so like this is a slightly different, I think this is like a slightly different episode from other episodes in that like you and I I think are both kind of like embedded in each other’s creative work in sort of a different way from some of the other people that I’ve brought on the show so far. Um, so I just wanted to start, um, I think it’d be great if for listeners who are maybe not familiar with your work, if you could talk a little bit, um, about your background, um, how you got into filmmaking and maybe a rundown of the projects that you’ve done in the past and what’s in the pipeline currently.
Ivy: Yeah, so I’m a film director first and foremost. Um, I also write, but my focus is definitely on directing. Um, I, I actually decided to become a director really early in life, which is good and bad. Um, because I was always super obsessed with just all mediums of art. So if my mom wanted to have like a few minutes or hours of peace when I was little, she would just give me like a blank piece of paper and a pencil and I would be gone for hours just like coming out with a drawing a song, a bad screenplay and a theater performance or something like that. So then when I was around 15, um, I watched an interview with David Lynch at 1:00 AM and I remember this very precisely cause it was like a big emotional moment for me. And it said David Lynch, Director, and I wasn’t entirely sure what that was.
Ivy: I just knew that a director was like the boss on the film set or something. Um, and I looked up the job description and just decided like, that’s what I’m going to do. Because I realized a film would be a combination of all different mediums of art that I really liked. Um, that was greater than the sum of its parts. I would be able to create something, uh, with other people. I’d get to be a leader. And all of that just felt like, I don’t know, cosmic alignment, as cheesy as that sounds, it just felt completely right. And I’m 28 now. Um, I’ve never even considered doing anything else.
Kat: Wow. I love that so much.
Ivy: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, it’s difficult, um, when you know exactly what you want to do, but it’s a very difficult career path. It’s not like you go to film school and then you’re guaranteed a job or like incorporate, you know, you’re, you’re pretty sure that if you study this, you can do this job. Um, like as a film director or as any artists, you’re never entirely sure that you’re going to get to do the thing that you feel you were born to do. Um, at least professionally, uh, there’s always ways to do it on your own. Um, but at the same time, I mean, a lot of people, even in their thirties who aren’t entirely sure what they want to do with their lives and may feel unmoored in a different way. So I think for me, I actually prefer knowing exactly what I want to do. Uh, even if it’s a struggle compared to not knowing where I want to focus my energy.
Kat: Yeah. I think this is all very relatable for me. Um, with, with regard to writing. Um, like I knew when I was six years old that I wanted to be a novelist. Right. But it’s something where, um, and there are a couple of ways you can do it right? There’s like you can, you can fully commit to it, um, in the way that I, I feel that you have or you can kind of like allow other things to kind of derail you for a while, which, which I have definitely allowed to happen. But, um, I don’t know. I guess it’s like a little bit different maybe to me because, um, on my end, I, I also feel like literally every life experience I have makes me a better writer. So I sort of made peace with the idea of like, Oh, yeah, I went to business school or, um, you know, I studied political science or whatever things I’ve done professionally.
Kat: Like all of those things actually just like add to kind of the portfolio of things I’m capable of writing about. Um, whereas filmmaking and directing like that is a craft in a different way where like you actually need to put in, you know, hours and hours of work to hone it. Um, and not that you don’t need to do the same with writing, but it’s like, I don’t know, like other kind of ancillary activities I think feed into writing in a way where like, you actually need to be behind the camera or you’re not going to learn how to direct a film. Right?
Ivy: Yes. Yes. That is really true. I mean, I also agree that the more life experience you have, the better and artists of any discipline you’re going to be. So, whether that means for me being able to work with different personalities or you know, um, the way I handled stress, like as, as a director on a film set, I want to be a center of calm and confidence so that when everyone starts freaking out because something’s going badly, they feel like they can trust me rather than be the director who was making everybody nervous because they’re indecisive and stressed and kind of giving out that kind of energy. Um, but it’s definitely true that, um, I think for me, if I’m writing, I can do other things to some extent. Um, because to write, I need, you know, some, I mean, I need time. Um, I’m not great at being creative if I know that I have to be somewhere in an hour.
Ivy: Um, so you do need free time. Um, and depending on your circumstances, you might or might not have that. But other than that, to write, I need, you know, pencil and paper or a computer and myself. Whereas to make even the most basic short film, you’re gonna need, you know, three to five people. Um, depending on what you’re making, but generally, you know, I don’t do a lot of like silent one person, um, like video art things, which I want to do more of just so that I have something to do, like in the off season. Um, but yeah, you definitely need a lot more resources. Um, and you depend on other people more than if you’re just writing.
Kat: Yeah, that makes total sense to me. So let’s talk a little bit about your projects and stuff you’ve worked on in the past and what you’re working on now.
Ivy: Yes. Uh, so I, um, about a year ago I released, um, a comedy series called relationship, which is now an Amazon prime in the UK, in the U S um, they actually, they didn’t censor the show itself. So, uh, all the swearing is still in there. But if you’re searching for an Amazon, you have to put in relations instead of relationship. We kind of, which still trying to get around that. Um, other than that, um, a lot of branded content and short films, um, kind of the usual stuff that you can see on my website. Um, I have a new short film coming out in a few weeks called companion shop, which is about an elderly woman who buys an artificial intelligent companion and difficulties arise trying to get rid of him. Um, and I’m currently developing two feature films that I hope to um, put into preproduction maybe next year, one of them next year. Very cool.
Kat: Um, so where, uh, how is companion shop going to be distributed?
Ivy: It’ll be online for free and on the film festival circuit.
Kat: Great. I’m actually really excited to see it, especially because I feel like we haven’t talked a whole lot about that project in particular.
Ivy: That’s true. Yeah. I think it was because I didn’t find that project difficult, so I didn’t need a lot of like support and accountability for it, whereas, you know, writing projects and the kind of stuff that’s just so tedious and terrifying, I tend to talk more about that.
Kat: Yeah, that’s interesting. That makes a lot of sense. Um, cool. Um, so shifting gears a little bit, um, I’d love if you could talk a little bit about what a typical week, if that exists, looks like for you and like how you also kind of like how you structure how you structure your week, um, so that you can get your stuff done.
Ivy: Yeah. Um, typical week there is I guess three types of weeks for me. Um, depending on if I’m shooting or not shooting and if I’m doing, um, pre or post production or if I’m writing when I’m not shooting. So, um, when I’m shooting, that’s all I think about. So, um, I don’t really make any, you know, plans for socializing. I don’t really pursue my other hobbies. Um, but those are, you know, limited amounts of time. So a feature film might shoot for four to six weeks and then a lot of the smaller projects that I do, that’s a few days. Um, so yeah, during that, that’s all my life is. Um, I also really believe in sleep. Um, a lot of filmmakers have this like badge of honor that they only slept for four hours at night, you know. Um, and I’m thinking, yeah, I’m sure you’re, you’re at peak creativity and it’s super safe for you to be driving a car right now.
Ivy: Uh, yeah, I really, um, that’s one of the things that I’m trying to do differently in the industry. It’s just to dramatically reduce the stress that we think is somehow cool. Um, like I completely disagree with that. Um, what I’m not shooting if it’s advanced pre-production, so if I’m not shooting anytime soon, that’s like a normal, I almost want to say office job cause so much of it is just computer based, um, um, writing emails, um, you know, creating slide decks or whatever, sometimes looking at locations, but generally very predictable, very kind of sane when it’s far out. Um, as it gets closer to production, you get busier and then things start going wrong and there’s always something that goes wrong and needs to be fixed and like it to two short timeframe. So that gets a little, um, more stressful. Um, post production. I hate post-production.
Ivy: I don’t know why. I know some fell for some filmmakers, the editing process is definitely required. Um, I don’t know why. I why I dislike it so much, but that’s one of the things that I have to like pump myself up for. Um, and then I’m either, um, sitting in with an edit, um, whether it’s with the editor or the colorist sound designer, composer, um, or again, you know, nowadays so much of can be done over email. They send you a file, you send your feedback back. Um, that can be if you’re working to a tight deadline because you want to submit to a festival or because, um, you have a premiere date and you’re not ready yet, that can be stressful. Um, I think spending like 12 to 16 hours in front of a computer is like my least favorite use of time. I’d rather spend, you know, a long day on set than in front of a computer just because it just feels more like real life.
Ivy: Um, but yeah, those, again, that’s, that’s kind of the, the two phases that I have shooting or not shooting. And then there’s a writing time. And that’s interesting because it’s probably where in terms of time, I’m spending the least amount hands on doing the work. But it’s some of the highest mental strain. So even if I’m only writing, you know, so many hours in a day, and I wouldn’t feel radically have the rest of those hours to do other stuff. I can’t really, um, I don’t know, switch off my writing brain. So when I’m writing, you know, for weeks at a time, I’m either writing or being nervous about writing, like I don’t exist for, for the rest of the world during that time. Um, which can be hard for people to understand that don’t have three to pursuits, but I’m getting better at kind of explaining that to people. And I think as long as when you’re with people, you show up fully and you’re present with them, um, and don’t make them feel like whatever you’re doing with them, you’re actually kind of in your head thinking about work. Um, then you know, people are fine to leave you alone. Um, whenever you’re, you’re working. Um, because they kind of, they, they get what they need from you and they understand you a little bit better as like an artist.
Kat: Yeah. No, I think that’s a really good point. And that’s something that I find I can, I sometimes find challenging as well as like when I need to get something done, I just want to block off time and be by myself and, and kind of hunker down on it. And I feel like when it’s, I dunno, like it kinda depends on the, it’s sort of different for me from person to person. Like there are some people where I feel like there’s like a hint of paranoia there where they like think I’m blowing them off and it’s like, um, I think some people genuinely do not understand that your creative work is like as important to you as your relationships. Um, and um, and maybe you don’t, I don’t know if you have as many of those people in your life as I do, but um, but I think yeah, your, your point about explaining it to people and doing so in a way where they actually can understand what you’re doing and where your time is going. And then also, I think your point about being fully present when you’re actually with people is a really good one as well. Yeah. And I think that, sorry, I think that does make a difference.
Ivy: Yeah. I think, um, what it also is it, so for me, I don’t have, you know, a time, day job that I’m doing and then trying to steal time to also make my art. So that’s, um, you know, something that’s I guess less challenging for me. Um, but I think it’s difficult for people who just have a day job that they don’t have to take home to understand kind of what the Headspace is like. So for some people they go to work from nine and then they finish at five and then they’re done with work and then they can focus on their personal lives. Um, and I’m not saying that, you know, the art life is inherently better or anything like that. I just think there’s, there, there are, and there should be different people that do different things that, you know, suit them and their personalities and their preferred lifestyles.
Ivy: So I’m not, you know, talking from a high horse, it’s just, it’s just different. Um, so for me, if I’m in preproduction and so many things are going wrong, it’s not, you know, I, I leave the production office and then I’m done. You know, there’s nothing else for me to think about. Cause a new, a new film is always has so many variables. You’re probably working with new people, you’re working at any location, there’s so many things you can’t influence, like the weather. Um, you’re constantly, you know, your nervous system is kind of an overdrive. Um, so, and writing is the same thing where it’s like creativity. You can just squeeze in creativity here and there. Um, so yeah, I think it’s, when somebody doesn’t have pursuits like that, um, and they don’t have their own experience, then it takes a lot of like willingness and also good communication skills from the artists’, um, side to really be able to like come to an understanding that makes both people feel good.
Kat: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. So a lot of your projects are kind of self-directed, where you might not necessarily have a, an external deadline associated with them. Right. Um, how do you find that intrinsic motivation when there isn’t some outside person or organization who’s waiting on stuff, stuff from you?
Ivy: Um, you know, it definitely is easier when there’s an external deadline. Um, I think part of that is why you and I started our accountability partnership to have some sort of external accountability there. Um, so I guess, um, a lot of stuff that I do, people are in some way waiting for. So if, you know, I spoke to a potential agent or a manager or producer, um, about a project that they might be interested in, they’re going to ask me, you know, when’s the next draft going to be finished? And then, um, I have not wanting to disappoint them as a really powerful motivator because, um, my creativity is really important to me. But also I want to be the discipline, dependable, um, collaborator. So, um, oftentimes there is a little bit of an external deadline, but I’m usually able to set it myself.
Ivy: So I think it comes with experience that you know, how long things are gone and going to take. And also, um, knowing yourself and being able to put in like buffer time for if you get sick or I don’t really get Widers blocked because, um, even though I do get anxious about writing, I think writer’s block is just when you get too much in your head about it. Um, and treat it as it’s like big mysterious thing rather than just work that has a process. And I think that I have a decent process now, so I don’t really get that anymore. But you know, something might crop up, some emergency family obligation. Um, so it’s, it’s important to always put in some buffer. Um, I guess the intrinsic motivation is, like I said, I always knew I was going to be an artist. Um, for me doing this is like my alignment with the universe. So it’s not really something that I don’t want to do and then have to force myself to do.
Ivy: Um, and I think I also, I just enjoy sharing finish work. So if I’m writing a screenplay, there’s always going to be somebody who’s going to read it for feedback, whether that’s um, you know, an agent or a manager or even just a peer. So the earlier drafts I always send to my screenwriter colleagues who are then going to give me feedback. Um, and I always look forward to that because the best ones they give you positive as well as negative note or constructive notes. Um, so I think having somebody to show your stuff to when it’s finished is important for me because I just like that moment of presenting the finished product, um, and just setting, setting external deadlines and then making them somehow public. So whether you post posts about it on social media and people start asking you about it, um, this can be, you can shoot yourself in the foot with that one too. Because on relationship I had set deadlines that didn’t factor in the things that weren’t within my control. Um, so other people’s schedules that changed, that I didn’t anticipate. And then it took longer than I thought it was going to. And then I kind of felt bad about that.
Ivy: But in general, setting an external deadline that people that you, whose opinion you care about know about, um, is really powerful for me.
Kat: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Um, and then also as you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that you have done these sort of like Twitter writing sprints as well, which I think is actually a good segue into, um, next question, which was around how you have built and continue to build community online. I think like when I think about your social media presence, I feel like you’ve done a great job of using social to network with other people in the industry, especially at a time when you can’t physically be in the same places them. So I’d love to talk a little bit about that and what that’s looked like for you.
Ivy: Yeah, that’s really interesting because I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about networking. So a lot of people say they hate networking with a terrible and networking. And I don’t really think about it like that. I just think about making real relationships with people. Um, so I started connecting with industry people in Los Angeles about a year and a half ago. Um, and I’m actually visiting there next month for two weeks and I don’t have to book accommodation for a single night because people from Twitter or people that I’ve met through Twitter, um, have offered me, um, places to stay with them. So that’s like a real tangible relationship that I felt like that’s not somebody that I met at a mixer when we were drinking wine out of plastic cups and I gave them my business card, you know.
Ivy: Um, that’s, yeah, that’s a really good distinction. Yeah. Like if that person invited you to there, like to stay at their home, maybe you should reconsider. Um, but yeah, I don’t have a social media schedule. I don’t have a content calendar. I don’t even look at it that way. Um, sometimes when, you know, I’m hunkering down for creative work, I don’t spend that much time there. And then sometimes when there’s, um, you know, a lot of like gaps in between things, then I’m on there more intensely. But it’s always about like genuinely engaging and interacting with people. So it’s not, um, you know, the trying to become an influencer using a million hashtags, um, kind of thing, which is fine if that’s your goal. Um, but the way I’ve been using it is just to make friends basically.
Kat: Yeah. No, I love that. I think that’s, that’s and it can feel, I mean, I know the word authenticity is like thrown around a lot to the point where that word doesn’t really have a meaning anymore, but I think it, it’s kind of more authentic when you’re, you’re genuinely interested in building relationships versus like trying to do this with like some kind of end goal in mind.
Ivy: Oh yeah. People can tell. I mean there’s, there’s industry people that I’ve, you know, supported through breakups for months at a time. I’m that person when there’s a job opening is probably more likely to think of me then some person who sent them an email with a resume attached, you know? Yep.
Kat: Very. Yeah. Very good point. Yeah. And it’s not like you did that. If I just, if I’m like a real friend to you for several months and then eventually you’ll have some opportunity drop in your lap, that’s perfect for me. Like that’s, yeah. Manipulate things.
Ivy: Yeah. I think, you know, just, uh, just try to be a good person and make, create genuine relationships with people and that’s going to be success more than, you know, making 120 sales calls a day to people that, you know, you don’t know. Definitely.
Kat: Um, so I wanted to talk a little bit, actually, you know what, let’s, can we talk about Patreon a little bit before we move on? Yes. Um, so can you talk about kind of how long you’ve been on it, what benefits you get out of it, and, um, I also always really like your sort of, um, dispatches for Patreon supporters. Like the, that email is, um, a must read for me. Like, I feel like even though I’m obviously not a director, we, we work on different types of things, but I think it’s a lot of the stuff you say is kind of broadly applicable, um, across creative industries.
Ivy: Yeah. Yeah. So I’ve been on patriarch for about two years. Um, I was initially hesitant because, um, I wasn’t sure with just a, the long amounts of time, the big amounts of time that it takes to get a film off the ground. Um, how I was gonna structure that whole thing because I think it’s easier for people that, um, create, uh, the create pieces of work that only required themselves, um, and that have a shorter turnaround time. So if you’re a musician or like a singer songwriter and you’re only, um, you’re recording only yourself, you’re not, you, you’re not part of a band. Um, or a poet or somebody who writes short fiction, that’s um, much, I mean, your overhead is gonna be a lot lower and your turnaround is going to be a lot shorter. Um, so page Shawn has these two, um, options.
Ivy: One is a monthly contribution and one is a person contribution. So every time you publish something, you would get a certain amount of time and money. Um, the ladder doesn’t really work for me because, um, I’m trying to make, you know, feature films that, I mean, those take years. So from the first idea to actually having final cut ready in the world, I mean, if you’re, if you’re quick, you know, that takes like three years, right? Um, depending on a lot of factors, but it takes, it takes more time than writing a poem, let’s say. Um, so I decided to go the monthly route and I’m actually trying to grow it to a point where, um, I can not only produce more content, um, by myself, but also start paying other people from it. So I’m not at an amount of money that I can do that, um, regularly at the moment, but I’m still like all of it is going into production of new work, um, which is ultimately an investment in, um, you know, stuff that I’m going to do later.
Ivy: So companion shop was completely financed from Patreon. Um, took it, it was maybe like years worth of contributions, but still, I mean, last year that was kind of the main project that I did. Um, my crew, uh, my cast and crew worked for ’em for free on that. It was a two day shoot. Um, but still like location costs, catering, transportation, um, some extra equipment. Um, yeah, money went there. Um, and then something that I learned not to do over this period of time is that at the beginning, the perks that I was offering were just disproportionate to, um, to the funds that I was able to get. So riding those dispatches once a week, um, depending on what, so if you’re a lower tier, it’s, it’s about accomplishments, um, which is kind of a, this is what I set out to do in the week.
Ivy: This is what I did. Um, these are my plans for next week. So then that again, external accountability, um, and then a slightly higher tier is more about kind of more like an essay style, um, um, like newsletter I guess, um, about kind of what’s going on with me, um, at that time, personal growth, um, and all of that. Um, and I used to offer these like videos every week and that was just like too much. Um, so my, like my hourly would have been like a dollar an hour or something. And on top of everything else that I was already doing, that was just too much work and I felt bad about thinking about not doing it anymore. But then when I pulled people, they were like, no, it’s fine. Like they weren’t going to cancel their subscriptions because I stopped doing that and I realized that, um, a lot of people weren’t actually signing up to receive the benefits that I was offering.
Ivy: They just wanted to support my career. So that could be whether they, um, just really liked the type of stuff that I was doing or a lot of them, like I, especially the higher tier ones. Um, they really like this whole like humane, respectful, sane film industry that I’m trying to build in my little corner of the world. Um, so the, the highest patient that I have, he actually doesn’t make use of the perk that’s offered at all. He just wanted to be like a silent investor basically, and just support me in what I was doing. So I think that was a big distinction that it wasn’t like a straight exchange. You give me this amount of money, I give you this product, but they just wanted to kind of support my career in the longer term kind of way.
Kat: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense to me. I love that. Um, yeah, that’s really cool. Actually. I especially love your, what you’re saying about kind of like trying to create like a more humane film industry, it wouldn’t have occurred to me that that’s something that like is almost kind of almost be like a marketing tool, you know, which I know you’re not using it that way, but that’s like an interesting kind of side benefit of like being a decent human being. Right.
Ivy: Somebody recommended that to me. They’re like, make that your brand.
Kat: It’s like a little sad that that’s like enough of a niche that like you can make a difference.
Ivy: Right? Yeah. Like I’m not a dick about it.
Kat: Um, so I wanted to talk a little bit about resources. I feel like you and I trade like book suggestions and um, apps and things like that a lot. So I wanted to, I wanted you to share, um, you know, some of the books that you’ve read that you recommend, um, some of the tools that you use to, um, to do your work and to get things done. Um, and to manage your time.
Ivy: Yeah. Um, so one app that I really love and I don’t know why it’s so special, but every time I tried to create a habit over the last like seven years, um, it’s only ever happened like with this habit tracker and not the other habit tracker. I don’t know why. It’s called Coach Me and it has a lot of features that I don’t actually use. So there’s this coaching feature where you can hire a coach, um, to coach, um, and there’s a community. Um, I don’t participate in any of that. I just literally set my goals in there and how many times I want to do it per week. And then I check in and right now I’m on a 47 day streak of yoga and meditation or something like that. Um, and it gives, like with certain milestones to app gives you like a high five.
Ivy: I don’t know if that’s why. Like there’s just like constant reinforcement. Um, and also not wanting to break the streak and just having something that tracks your streaks with habits, um, is really useful. Um, last summer I had a really, um, ambitious, um, writing goal that, um, I wanted to finish this feature before I started a new project and it was like just enough time. So with a lot of discipline it was possible. Was using that app. Um, that’s the one that works for me. Yeah. I think just having a habit tracker is a good idea. Um, and not building too many habits at a time. I think so just from a yoga and meditation, I do them back to back. They’re kind of the same thing, like the same habit for me. Um, so that’s one thing that I really like. Um, another one is rescue time, which is an app that logs and categorizes time spent on your computer. Um, and what I did, my yearly review for last year, I realized that if I kept spending time on Twitter the way I did, I would spend like five years of my entire life on Twitter if I lived to be in my eighties.
Ivy: And, and that’s like, I don’t sit down and spend three hours on Twitter that’s just like here and there. Right. Um, but still, you know, I can, I can think of a lot of things that I could do in five years. So like we, like we said, you know, I do use it in kind of a constructive way. I mean, I’ve gotten jobs through there. I’ve gotten, you know, meetings, um, a producer of a movie that I really liked contacted me, like via DM. Um, and we had a general meeting and she said that actually the reason he wanted to meet me was because of my Twitter. So it’s not, you know, it’s part of networking, but still, you know, I think I could still get the same benefits while using it more mindfully, you know? Um, so yeah, rescue time you like if you can see that you’re spending like eight times the amount of time on distracting stuff as you are on the things that you say you want to be spending time on, you know, that visual, this it’s just powerful.
Ivy: Um, then a book that I really liked, which is also about technology use is Indistractible. And that’s the first book on this that I’ve read and I’ve read quite a few that I think addresses the actual underlying issue, which is that technology overuse comes from our inability or unwillingness to manage difficult emotions. Um, yeah, yeah. On your recommendation. So yeah, but I think that really is the key, right? Yeah. Cause all of us, we still read digital minimums. Right. And it wasn’t, it didn’t quite, you know, hit the spot from like, you know, it was well researched and well argued, but still it didn’t really address what the problem actually is in my opinion. And also it doesn’t only talk about social media and how like social media is bad. Um, it talks about distraction in general. Cause if you’re not on social media, you’re going to go on YouTube.
Ivy: You know, if you’re not on YouTube, you’re going to like start snacking or whatever. Um, or text someone. But just I think, um, especially in creative careers but also just as a person, one of the most important skills you can develop is dealing with and being okay with, um, difficult emotions and not distracting yourself as soon as you feel a little bit uncomfortable.
Kat: Yeah. Um, so interestingly, I actually didn’t read Digital Minimalism yet, but like as you know, I’m like a huge Cal Newport stan. But some of the conversation that I heard around that book in particular, um, the, the critiques that I saw in one was, um, my friend Selena, who is a cancer survivor and had built a lot of online community. I mean, one, she’s, she’s someone who builds online community in general. Um, but I think also specifically with regard to, um, connecting with other people who had had similar diagnoses. Um, one thing that I think she was critical of about that book was that he just really, Cal Newport isn’t on any social media, fully understand. He really doesn’t understand the value of the relationships that you can build there. And so honestly, he just kind of didn’t really have any business writing this book because he just has this entire, like this huge sort of, um, like thing that he doesn’t understand. Like he, he just doesn’t grasp, um, what the thing actually is that he’s railing against. Yeah.
Ivy: He’s searching something and looking at it from the outside can be beneficial, but it’s still different to, you know, be, be in the trenches yourself. Um, and I mean, the main point of digital minimalism is take a one month detox to break that kind of addictive compulsive behavior, um, and find high quality pursuits of time, um, to do instead. And like learning an instrument, playing a sport or whatever. And like that’s all valid. And I think a good thing to do. I mean, that’s what I do automatically when I’m on set, you know, I’m not in between takes checking Twitter because there’s something more interesting going on. Um, but I think just being able to sit with stuff that comes up when you’re being really quiet. I mean, when I started doing yoga and meditating, like I was trying to sobbing in the middle of the meditation and for like no reason, um, because stuff was coming up that I wasn’t rationally dealing with. And I feel like, you know, I’m very aware of my feelings and I’m very self aware and I’m not, you know, I don’t shy away from that. But still when things get really quiet and you’re alone with your thoughts and you want to check your phone but you don’t, it’s really interesting what comes up then.
Kat: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. That’s a really good point. Um, I think very relatable for probably everyone.
Ivy: We’re all human. It’s all like, I think that is a very, very universal experience.
Kat: Yeah, no, it absolutely is. Um, yeah, I mean, I think like in general, like that’s, that’s kind of the central problem that people have with just being present in their lives at all. Right? And so I think pointing to your phone or other digital distractions is kind of the obvious thing that we think about, um, based on how the world is today. But I think it can be true of really anything that you’re using to numb out. Um, yeah.
Ivy: Well, what I find really interesting between you and me is that, so I’m like hyper mortality aware, right? Like a little, not a little like way too much. So I’m constantly like, I might die any second. Um, so I’m very aware of like how I want to spend my life and still even me as somebody who was very rationally aware of the fact that we’re all going to die and nothing is guaranteed. I’m still going to spend an afternoon in front of Netflix rather than at the dog beach. You know what I mean? It still happens. And you, for awhile, this was like a year ago or something, but you had this app called WeCroak that wasn’t like notifications to remind you that you’re going to die one day.
Kat: Yeah. And you know what, I still have the app, but it doesn’t like, doesn’t work anymore or something like it stopped alerting me that I was going to die. So, um, yeah. Well, and unfortunately I’ve had a couple of recent deaths of close to me, so I’m, I’m, I’m actually feeling very death aware right now. Um, and uh, and it’s interesting cause I’m already seeing kind of how that’s shifting, um, how I think about, you know, where my time goes and, um, and also sort of kind of like what I, what I’m willing to put up with from other people and like where my tolerance sort of ends for bullshit or like things I don’t want to deal with. Um, so I mean I think that’s, I think that’s that kind of death awareness is going to be probably a theme, um, of this year for me.
Kat: Um, just because like, and I, I actually haven’t really, as of as of this recording, but I think I may actually re I may actually publish another solo episode between now and when I publish this episode, um, where I do talk about it, but like my, you know, you know all of this, but for anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know, um, my 26 year old cousin passed away suddenly the first week of the year and um, and that was on the tail of losing another friend to ovarian cancer in the second half of December. So it’s been, it’s been an interesting few weeks and it’s like, there’s been like a lot of sort of like both internal conversation in my own head around priorities and goals and you know, what it means to create meaning in my life. And then also like, I’ve just been talking to a lot of people about similar things recently.
Kat: Um, so moving on, I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about our accountability partnership. I think just like they have like let people know like what that can look like because I think something that’s really interesting is, so we’ve been working together for two years. We are on different continents and we’ve never actually been in the same room together. But as I was, I was talking to someone last night and I mentioned you and I was like, yeah, so Ivy and I’ve worked together for two years. We’ve never physically met, but I would say like, you’re one of my best friends, like, you know, as much about my life as pretty much anyone else in it, you know, um, it’s really interesting to like have that kind of deep relationship without being able to be like physically present together.
Ivy: And Kat, remind me, where did you and I connect?
Kat: Um, I think we originally met in the, um, the Secret Bullicorn Facebook group, which was right. So Jen, Jen Dziura who, um, runs the website, Get Bullish, had this, um, I guess it still exists, but it was a Facebook group, um, a private Facebook group for followers of her work. And it’s interesting. So that’s actually, I’ve met a lot of people through that. So I’m also in a mastermind group here in New York called the Valkyrie collective. And I met all of those women through that group as well. And now they’re like my in real life friends who I see with some regularity. And like, it’s so like, I mean, I think the theme of this conversation has been like building digital community. Um, and I’ve like really seen how that’s played out in my own life. Um, but yeah, so I think that’s how we first met.
Kat: And then we started following each other on social. And then I, um, I took this, um, so there’s, there’s this, um, company called One Month that does these 30 day, um, courses where like, you can learn whatever skill in a month. So, um, a lot of them are hard skills like HTML, CSS, um, or, um, you know, other like coding languages, whatever. But then he’s also the, uh, the cofounder of the company. Chris Castiglione is like very goal centric, um, which definitely appeals to me. And, um, he did at the beginning of 2018 offered this kind of like one-off sort of like goal setting for 2018 course. And one of the things that he suggested was finding an accountability partner. And I was like, and it’s interesting, I’d had had conversations with a couple of people about potentially doing an accountability partnership and then I was like, yeah, but that person’s gonna flake.
Kat: Like that’s, I was like, I can’t even get this person, like on my calendar to like have dinner again. Like, this is not going to work. I was like, but I think this could be beneficial to me because I do want to like really buckle down this year and like get serious about what I’m working on. And then I don’t like, I don’t remember how this idea occurred to me, but I, as soon as I was like, Oh, wait, Ivy, that’s the person. And then I reached out to you. And fortunately you were on board with it.
Ivy: It was so funny because I was like obsessed with you. Yeah. I had read like the entirety of your blog. Um, and I, and I remember that, you know, I had kind of toyed around with the idea of accountability partners myself and had tried it like I think twice, um, two or three times, but I distinctly remember thinking that you were actually a person that I would care to impress.
Kat: I feel like I’m like the, I’m the dead weight in this relationship. So all of this is very nice and feels a little unwarranted. I don’t know.
Ivy: That was just at the beginning, like by now, I’m just like, ah, sorry.
Kat: Um, no, that’s so nice though. Like, because I just think you’re like, your work is, it’s really nice that you like actually liked my work because I think your work is like so unbelievably great. Um, and um, I was, I was, like I said, I was talking to someone about you last night and that was talking about, um, your film Creme Brulee in particular. And I was like, I can’t wait to see that movie get made. Like, I, um, like that’s, that’s my favorite of your projects, I think.
Ivy: Yeah. You know, that’s everyone’s favorite. Um, it’s like, it’s about food and sex and like accomplishments, like those three things, right?
Ivy: Yeah. Um, that’s actually the one that’s actually the one that I’m hoping is going to get made for us. So you might be in luck. There’s been a bit of interest on working on a rewrite this month, um, just coming along well, so you might be lucky.
Kat: They’re amazing. I’ll keep my fingers crossed. Um, so yeah. And so like, just to dive in a little bit on like what, what this looks like. So we do a Skype call every two weeks. Um, when we’re on top of our shit, sometimes we don’t stick to our schedule as well as we should. Um, and we kind of spend an hour talking through, um, well in theory we spend an hour talking through our goals and like what, what short term, um, tasks are on our plates. Um, and then sometimes we just spend an hour like talking about dudes, which isn’t totally irrelevant to our work, I guess. So.
Ivy: Yeah. Yeah. But like it is possible to like, and then I mean, and we, we text and stuff in between the, the calls. Um, but I guess my point is like, it is possible to like have a functioning partnership where you’re act, you’re like actually helping each other get shit done. Um, and it like it may look different if you are working with someone who’s in the same city as you or someone you see on a regular basis. Um, but I dunno, I wonder sometimes if like maybe this works better because we don’t see each other like every day. Um, so I think it’s like, cause I think it would be, it would almost maybe like be a little bit less special or like harder to, um, harder to stick with. So I think it’s easier to push things off when it’s like, like, so like we have a standing date every other Tuesday morning, we push that off.
Kat: Then it’s like, we don’t talk for a month, but if I, if it were someone that I, you know, maybe see at my day job and work with on a regular basis, I think it’s a lot easier to be like, Oh, well we were going to meet tomorrow but we can just meet, you know, Wednesday instead or whatever it is. Yeah. And like we do that as much and I, I mean I look at like the work that I’ve produced in the past couple of years and like it definitely wouldn’t have happened without you. Like I wrote, I wrote a full novel in 2018 I wrote 270 pages of a different novel last year. Like, I mean I, and I feel like prior to our working together, I just like wasn’t, my creative output was like much, much smaller than what it is today.
Ivy: Yeah. I think it, I think also just surrounding yourself with more people who are living the life that you want to live more off, I guess. Um, it’s just like automatically more, not motivating, but it just kind of go through osmosis. You just start being more like that, like if you want to, I don’t know, go to the gym more often and find friends who go to the gym a lot, you know, and then it just becomes normal to eat healthy and kind of do active days rather than, you know, meeting for Netflix and snacks or something. And the same thing with creativity. If you live somewhere where people are always making something, then you know, it just becomes like a normal thing to just be making stuff and it takes that anxiety away as well, you know?
Kat: Yeah. No, and that’s a really good point. And like I, and I think about kind of the other sort of activities that I’ve done more of to support my, my creativity and it’s, um, you know, going to a lot of Creative Mornings events, um, and things like that where it might not be directly related to like the particular art form that, that I want to do, but think doing like literally anything where you’re making something support that supports creativity as a habit. Yeah. And, um, and I think doing that and getting into it as a daily practice, um, that pays dividends in a way that maybe isn’t immediately clear, but over time it’s very easy to see how it kind of changes everything.
Ivy: Yeah. Yeah. Do you know one thing that I was wondering is, do you feel like because we’ve become friends over these two years now that the accountability feels less, um, I don’t know, like a little less accountable because we are more lenient with each other.
New Speaker: You know, that’s probably fair.
Ivy: Because I don’t know if it’s somebody that I’m only talking to in a work context. I’m like, Oh, I, you know, I missed this deadline because I have so much shit going on. They’re going to be like, well everyone has shit going on, you know, do your work. Whereas you and I were like, Oh, you have a lot of stuff going on, you know?
Kat: Yeah, I actually know what the stuff is. It’s not some vague thing that you’re pointing to that’s over in the corner.
Ivy: Yeah. I think it’s important to find a balance there because like shame is not a motivator for a human being for a sustained amount of time. Like, I mean shame is, you know, had its play, so much evolution. Uh, if you’re doing something that’s harming others, then yeah, you should be expelled from the tribe, that kind of thing. Um, but you know, if you tell me, um, I can’t actually, I can’t think of anything that like is cool to say on a, on a public podcast, but let’s say last week I wanted to write five days out of the week, but I had a blinding migraine so I only wrote, um, I think two or three days out of the week. If you said to me, you know, your piece of shit, you know, sit down in front of your computer, it doesn’t matter if you can’t see anything, you know, get those words on that. But that would, I’ve not talked to you again.
Kat: Yeah, I think that would be reasonable because like a migraine is a real impediment to getting things done. Like, you can’t have a migraine and sit there and stare at a screen.
Ivy: Yeah, exactly. But at the same time, when it’s more the day to day staff, I’ve actually, like over the last week, I said to people twice that like, man, I could be spending my life minutes making art for the ages and instead I’m dealing with, you know, just during vaguely, it’s more the day to day stuff that everybody is dealing with. I think it’s, it’s a fine line because on one hand, yes, you need to deal with your life. Um, and I don’t think that productivity should be the mother, the measure of how well you lived your life. Um, you should also have enjoyed some of it, but, um, it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s important. Like you’re never gonna have completely like, smooth sailing for any extended amount of time. So I think it’s important to find that balance between, you know, being compassionate with yourself and others for, you know, when stuff’s going on that really prevents them from doing the work, but also having enough, I guess, toughness to, um, to, to help yourself or help other people develop. The skills that they need, um, to, you know, get better at, you know, pursuing their goals against a headwind.
Kat: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s kind of that thing of like, um, like gaining flexibility through structure. Right? So like you set structure so that you have a way of getting shit and then when those sort of external things come in or life happens or whatever it is, like then you, you have flexibility built in because you know that like you’ve already been doing the thing that you were supposed to be doing. Yeah, exactly. It won’t derail you completely because once you’re done dealing with whatever it is, you can just jump back into that structure.
Ivy: Yeah. And one thing that made a huge difference to me in my, in my writing, I’ve written more since then, then I probably have like maybe in a month, well then in the long time before, I don’t want to say like my entire life, but um, so I, you know, wasn’t dealing with a lot of life stuff and I found it really difficult to focus on writing, but writing and producing screenplays and moving my film career forward was the way to get out of, you know, about situation. So it was kind of, this felt like a stalemate because there was so much stress from the situation. But to get out of it I needed to ignore the stress and kind of be creative and being creative under stress is pretty difficult. Um, so I was talking to this, um, really experienced writer and he recommended that instead of seeing the writing as work and as a chore to see it as an escape from everything else that’s going on.
Ivy: So that’s something I get to do. You know, I have to deal with all of this crap all day. But then when I sit down to write, I finally, you know, I can go into the story stuff thinking about everything else and just enjoy kind of that escape. And that made a huge difference to me because before that I tried to create more ideal circumstances for me to do my work and instead I was now it felt like a treat, you know, or I was trying to make you feel more more like that and it was more something that, you know, you get to do as, you know, reward for weathering everything else. Um, and making it feel more like play I think was also a big deal for me because when you have looming deadlines and like this is your work and this is your identity and it’s been my identity my entire life.
Ivy: Because I was always the artist and the writer and the storyteller. Just being able to like step away from that a little bit and say, I’m going to establish a daily writing habit because then it’s act, there’s less pressure on any one session to be good. If I’m only writing when I have a deadline, then you know, those, I don’t know, 30 sessions have to be really good. Whereas if I’m writing every day, I’m making forward progress no matter what. So then if there’s one off session, the deal I have with myself is I have to sit down and I have to be writing and doing my best while the timer’s on. And then when I’m done with the session, what the result is, isn’t a women in my control. Um, as long as I showed up, I can Mark it. As, you know, I’ve reached my goal for the day.
New Speaker: Yeah. I love that. That’s really great. Um, yeah, especially, I especially love your point about, um, how you, if you, if you’re doing something intermittently, there’s more chance of like putting pressure on it. And I think you can get very neurotic around it and very precious about your work. Um, whereas like, honestly the most important thing is to just sit down and do it. And, um, and that’s something I think I’ve had to contend with over the past couple of years. And I think I’ve, I’ve also gotten to a point where I can just kind of sit down and do the thing and, and then worry about whether it’s good later. Um, because like really the only thing, and I think I wrote this in a blog post at some point, like really the only thing you can control is whether the work gets done. You can’t control necessarily the quality of it. I mean, you can hone your craft, you can work to get better. But like in any particular sitting, like you can’t necessarily control whether you write the best thing of your life or not. Yeah. You can’t control what other people’s responses to it are going to be, whether you’re able to publish it. Um, it’s like that. But what you can control is did I sit down, open up my laptop or open up a notebook and grab my pen and like actually do the writing. So I love that.
Ivy: Yeah. And that’s the, that’s the other thing besides managing difficult emotions for me is I’m taking full responsibility for the things that you can control. And there’s a lot of things that you could not control. Um, but that doesn’t excuse you from not doing, you know, the other stuff that is within, within your circle of control. I’ve had control so many times in here it, so it’s fine. Okay, cool. Um, so even with a lot of external circumstances, like for me, writing used to be such a like sacred, Holy thing where, you know, I had all these rituals around it and that’s fine. Like it’s nice to have rituals, you know, I like my writing room. It has to smell good. There has to be like a center candle or something going on. Um, but I don’t know, let’s say there’s construction next door, you know, I could then say, well, the circumstances aren’t ideal, so I’m going to shut my laptop and it’s not my fault. I just can’t run. Then I complained about, you know, not having made it as a wider yet, or I can go to a coffee shop or I can put in headphones and just do it anyway. And the part that I kind of control is do I show up or not? You know? So I, I show up and see what happens next.
Kat: Yeah. Well, and I think that’s like a minor form of resistance, right? It’s like, let me find like 18 excuses for why you didn’t do the thing because I’m actually just afraid to do the thing.
Ivy: Yeah. And it has never happened that I sat down and often happens that I sit down and I’m like, I’m going to have zero ideas today. Like it’s, it’s just a bad life. I’m off, I can’t focus. And that’s fine. So I sit down and have a session where I write without a lot of focus, but usually, you know, 10 20 minutes in, I’m going to have at least one that moves things forward and letting go of the perfectionism that this drought has to be the best one. It’s like, well, no, that’s what kept me from finishing one feature that I was writing for such a long time is because it was so close and people were requesting it that I thought, all right, well this one has to be perfect. Um, no, you just make it better than before. Send it out for feedback, incorporate the feedback, send it out, you know, just breaking it down into smaller, manageable steps rather than making it, you know, this has to be my masterpiece.
Kat: Yeah, definitely. Um, so before we wrap up, I thought we’d talk a little bit about your dog. Um, so Eli is like the cutest dog on the planet. Um, so can we talk a little bit about, um, how he came into your life, um, what having a dog has done for your creativity and anything else you think everyone needs to know.
Ivy: Oh man. How much time you got? Um, so I got Eli about four and a half years ago when I was saying I would love to have a dog. I want to have a dog so bad. And then, you know, after an amount of time doing that, I realized that I’m an adult now I can get a dog if I want one. Um, and so I did, um, I did a lot of research on the kind of dog that would fit with my life. Actually Eli was supposed to be travel sized, but because he’s a mixed breed, um, he’s a bit bigger than he was supposed to be. So that kind of, um, changed the plan. I had a little bit, but you know, that’s life. Um, and I think he’s the perfect dog. I mean, I can, you know, take him outside and on hikes and stuff that you couldn’t do with a smaller dog. Um, for a while. We went like jogging together. Um, so yeah, he’s, um, um, to me she’s perfect, you know, there’s nothing I would change about it.
Ivy: And a lot of people were like, well, how are you going to do that as a filmmaker? And I mean, there is some truth to that, but not because of the logistics, it just because of the emotional aspects of it. So, um, last year I was on a production for 11 weeks where I had to be out of town and I thought that I was going to be able to take him into the production office with me, which would have been fine, but then I wasn’t because, um, he wasn’t allowed for, for a few reasons. Um, so I had to leave him with my family and only saw him on the weekends for 11 weeks. Like I spent 400 euros a month just to be able to see my dog on the weekend.
Kat: I remember that. Yeah.
Ivy: I wouldn’t, you know, I’d wrap up after like five days of production, get on a train to get to like get home late on Friday so that I could spend like the maximum amount of time with my puppy.
Ivy: Um, but, you know, ultimately is it, well, it was to create a better life for us. Um, so yeah, the ha and, um, when I was doing a lot of like branded content and traveling around the UK a lot, um, I, it depended on what I was doing. So if it was just for the day, you know, you take him to daycare and he has a great day, like romping around with artists, other doggies and they’re supervised and that’s fine. Um, if it’s for a longer, if, if, if I wasn’t like a three day shoot or something, um, I would see if I could either bring a person with me who would then look after him there or if there was like a good licensed insured with good reviews, um, daycare near where I was shooting, and then I would have him in the hotel with me, um, overnight and then drop him off at like doggy daycare in the morning, go do the shoot and pick him back up.
Ivy: They would get exercise, um, with the people that were looking after them. So, um, nowadays, you know, there’s so many, there’s so many dog obsessed people that there’s a lot of businesses catering to them as well, so that, you know, worked, it depends on your dog. You know, some dogs are fine being left at home, um, for a few hours. Some dogs are like super clingy, some dogs are, I don’t know, intense barkers and can’t be left alone for a minute. Eli is pretty cool, like he can be left alone, but I just feel bad. Um, like I’d never leave him alone for more than a few hours at a time. Um, so I think, again, this is an attitude thing. It’s like I want to have a dog and I want to be a filmmaker. How do I make those things work together? Um, a lot of people don’t get dogs because they’re like, well, it’s impossible.
Ivy: Um, dogs are only something you can have if you’re like a four person family or, you know, they give away a dog because the landlord doesn’t allow dogs. We’ll move, man. Like I move 10 times, 10 times within two years in London, within London because I couldn’t find a permanent place to live with my dog, but I was going to be homeless before I was going to give up my dog. Um, so before I started this again, life happened before I got him. I had, um, I had planned where I was gonna live, but then that didn’t work out. And then suddenly you’re like, Oh no. Um, cause finding, you know, a house here or, or an apartment to live with the dog in London is hard because there’s so much demand for housing that they don’t have to make any exceptions. Um, but again, you know, there’s ways to figure it out.
Ivy: I never, it all depends on your priorities. You know, I did research like a year, um, before I got a dog, what kind of breed I was going to get, what I was going to do if I was traveling abroad, what was I going to do if I was traveling abroad for a long time? Um, you know, there’s always options to do stuff. If you, if you decide that something’s impossible, you don’t even look for the ways that it could work. And I’ve never been the kind of person who’s like, Oh, well that sounds hard, so I’m not going to do it. If you’re a filmmaker with that mindset, you’re not going to last very long. So yeah. Um, so whatever life I make, I also think about, um, his quality of life. Like 100% of his experience of life depends on me, you know, so that I take that responsibility very seriously.
Ivy: So Eli actually has a bucket list. He’s been to six countries. Um, every day I make sure that there’s something special in that day for him because no day is guaranteed. You know, I hope he lives to be 15 or older, but I don’t know that, and even that is a very short amount of time. Um, so yeah, for me, he’s a priority and I make everything, everything work, um, in a way that fits all of my priorities and values. Um, and it’s possible, you know, if I get it, I’m shooting for six weeks, I’m going to find a good daycare or somebody to look after him. Um, when I’m in an office, I’m going to ask if I can take him with me and if I can, you know, some I’ll find somebody to look after him and if there’s nobody to look after him, then you know, you’re not going to take the job. But that’s never happened. Like it’s never happened that I couldn’t find anybody that I trusted to look after him in a good way and had to turn down the job. Like that’s not once has that happened.
Kat: Yeah. That’s great. Um, well I will be sure to include some photos so that everyone can see how adorable he is. Although I feel like it’s hard to get like the full extent of his personality unless you see videos of him or, um, if he is in the background during one of our Skype calls,
Ivy: I feel like I should really be making more like video content with him. I just need to come up with some like concepts like a day in the life of Eli or like Eli goes to a job interview. I should probably do more, more stuff like that.
Kat: Yeah. No, I think there’s, there are a lot of directions you could go with that. So it seems like for years I’ve had this idea of doing like a web series about my cat called Billable Meowers and it’s about cat lawyers. But one I need like more cats or I guess I need to like dress him in costumes or something and my cat is such an asshole. He would never stand for any of this.
Ivy: Eli loves attention. He’s a showbiz dog.
Kat: Yeah, I dunno. That seems like an untapped resource right there. Um, so Ivy, thank you so much. I feel like this has been such a rewarding conversation for me personally, which is so thanks for, thanks for starting my day off on the right foot. It’d be like really valuable for the audience. And I feel like you’ve shared so much across like, um, just like a breadth of topics. And like, even though I, you and I talk about like everything, like I, I feel like I’m still, like, I, I feel like I’ve gotten even more out of this than I expected to, which is awesome. So thank you.
Ivy: It’s true. Um, all right.
Kat: Thank you so much and I will probably talk to you soon. Yeah. Bye.
So that’s this week’s episode of How to Be Creative. As always, you can find show notes, including a complete episode transcript and links to everything discussed at howtobecreative.org.